But what does it really mean to “Get wise” or “Gain wisdom”? The Readings for this Sunday’s Mass teach us about this issue.
During this part of Ordinary Time in Year A, the Church is pursuing a lectio continua (continuous reading, i.e. reading in order) of both Romans and Matthew. (This excellent website by Fr. Just provides an overview of the pattern of the Lectionary. ) The First Readings are taken from key passages of the Old Testament, chosen (more or less) to complement the Gospel reading.
This weekend’s First Reading is Solomon’s famous encounter with God in a dream early in his reign. Faced with the invitation to make any request of God, Solomon asks for the wisdom to rule well. God is pleased with this request and grants it to him. In a verse not used in Mass, God adds: “I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that no other king shall compare with you, all your days” (1 Kings 3:13). We are reminded here of Jesus’ words from the Sermon on the Mount: “Seek first his Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well” (Matt 6:33). Solomon’s first thought is for the welfare of God’s Kingdom: to rule it beneficially, he needs divine wisdom. Since Solomon puts the interests of the Kingdom first, God honors him.
The Psalm is taken from the greatest celebration of God’s Law in the Psalter, Psalm 119. In this Psalm, the “Law” often refers not simply to the laws of the Pentateuch but to God’s revelation generally. The Psalm celebrates the LORD as the source for all true wisdom:
The revelation of your words sheds light,
giving understanding to the simple.
giving understanding to the simple.
LORD, I love your commands.
In today’s Readings, Solomon is remembered for his “good side,” that is, the zeal and devotion of his youth. The sacred author describes his early years this way: “Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father” (1 Kings 3:3). The Psalm encourages us to remember this side of Solomon, the Solomon who loved God and God’s revelation.
The Second Reading promises that God’s providence attends those who love him, as Solomon did:
Brothers and sisters:
We know that all things work for good for those who love God,
who are called according to his purpose.
For those he foreknew he also predestined
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
so that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers and sisters.
And those he predestined he also called;
and those he called he also justified;
and those he justified he also glorified.
When I was a kid, I thought this verse said “all things work out good for those who love God.” I figured that if I obeyed God’s laws, I would always be successful. Of course, that’s not what the verse means, which I discovered the hard way in my mid-twenties through a series of personal crises.
This is one verse that we want to translate correctly. Here is the Greek, in English characters:
Oidamen de hoti tois agapoœsin ton theon panta synergei eis agathon, tois kata prothesin kleœtois ousin.
Translating woodenly, it reads:
We know that, for those who love God, all things work together unto good, for those being called according to his purpose.
Not all things are good or work out well, but for those who love God, he causes all things to contribute to our ultimate good--even sickness, failure, persecutions, and death itself (cf. Rom 8:35).
By virtue of the covenant with David his father, Solomon enjoyed the privilege of being a Son of God (see 2 Samuel 7:14). Indeed, he was reckoned as God’s Firstborn among the kings of the earth (Psalm 89:27). Compare St. Paul’s language:
For those he foreknew he also predestined
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
so that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers and sisters.
The royal privileges that Jesus the Christ enjoys as Son of David and Son of God are extended to all who join themselves to him. In a mysterious way, a way known only to God, those who freely “choose God” actually find that, all along, they were chosen by him. This is the mystery of predestination
. It is not something we will comprehend fully in this life, but in this part of Romans, St. Paul means to reassure us: God is working in us and through us. His plans will be accomplished.
. It is not something we will comprehend fully in this life, but in this part of Romans, St. Paul means to reassure us: God is working in us and through us. His plans will be accomplished.
The Gospel Reading finishes the last of the Parables of the Kingdom from Matthew 13:
Jesus said to his disciples:
“The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure buried in a field,
which a person finds and hides again,
and out of joy goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant
searching for fine pearls.
When he finds a pearl of great price,
he goes and sells all that he has and buys it.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea,
which collects fish of every kind.
When it is full they haul it ashore
and sit down to put what is good into buckets.
What is bad they throw away.
Thus it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous
and throw them into the fiery furnace,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
“The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure buried in a field,
which a person finds and hides again,
and out of joy goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant
searching for fine pearls.
When he finds a pearl of great price,
he goes and sells all that he has and buys it.
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net thrown into the sea,
which collects fish of every kind.
When it is full they haul it ashore
and sit down to put what is good into buckets.
What is bad they throw away.
Thus it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous
and throw them into the fiery furnace,
where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
These three parables are obviously speaking of the Kingdom manifested on earth as the Church, not the Kingdom consummated in the world to come. These parables are favorites of converts, because the experiences described in them seem so parallel to some of our own experiences of finding our way (or rather, God finding us and bringing us) into the Catholic Church.
The first of these parables tells us that the Kingdom is not always obvious. It’s like “treasure buried.” There’s no billboard saying, “TRUE CHURCH, EXIT LEFT 1 MILE.” In fact, those speeding by on the highway of life will never find it. You have to be digging. Digging in the vineyard, perhaps. Suddenly you hit something with your spade. Can it be? Is it? Yes! You are willing to leave everything you have to buy the field with this treasure. (Incidentally, the moral sense of “sells all that he has and buys the field” can apply to those who embrace the evangelical counsel of poverty in the religious life.)
The second of these parables is similar to the first. Again, the Kingdom is not obvious. There are many competitors, perhaps even fakes, “faux pearls” or pearls of low quality. It takes some discernment—indeed wisdom, like Solomon asked for—to tell the true and valuable pearl from all the look-alikes and costume jewelry from Claire's. It’s found by those who are looking carefully and (perhaps) have gotten some experience in this business.
The third parable is one of the most important for Catholics to understand and embrace. It tells us that the Kingdom, for all its value, is also going to be a “mixed bag” during this age. Like the net thrown into the sea that catches fish of many kinds, so the Church is like a net thrown by Peter, his co-workers the Apostles, and their successors, which brings many—both saints and sinners—into God’s Kingdom. Not all brought in during this age will persevere through the final judgment, however.
“The Kingdom” in the Gospel of Matthew is, in one sense, nothing but Jesus himself: the King (the autobasileia). However, since the Church is the Body of Christ and united to him, what is said about the Kingdom applies also to the Church, both Triumphant (in heaven) and Militant (on earth). The seven parables of the Kingdom in Matt 13 are clearly not speaking of the Church Triumphant, glorified in God’s presence; nor are they speaking (for the most part) of the Kingdom manifested in the person of Christ the King. No, these parables of a Kingdom hidden, starting small, growing slowly, hard to find, mixed with weeds and bad fish, is a description of the Church Militant—perhaps even our local parish!
As I mentioned last week, many self-appointed “reformers” in Church history have split the historic Church in order to establish a “pure” or “sifted” church. Even today, many leave the Catholic Church for various sects, denominations, even cults, because of the scandal of sinners within the visible Body of Christ. “How can this be the Kingdom of God when it has people like that in it!?” Yet it is, and Jesus told us it was going to be like this.
It takes wisdom to recognize that the Church Militant is, for all its rents and wounds, the Kingdom of Heaven come to earth. This wisdom can only come from God, granted by him to those who love him. If we are docile to the teachings of Jesus, the one who is greater than Solomon, he will teach us the wisdom of the Kingdom.
37 comments:
What is it about laying claim to the field that is essential for claiming the treasure? What is Jesus saying in this detail of the parable?
Yet, that’s it: “These parables are favorites of converts, because the experiences described in them seem so parallel to some of our own experiences of finding our way (or rather, God finding us and bringing us) into the Catholic Church.”
Apparently besides speaking that way to converts, these parables also speak that way to reverts, or at least this one rebel who, (after bolting away from the Church for 35 years, at the end of those years found herself having actually to have been carefully and gently led back home) found herself joyfully on her knees in a wooden pew in front of Him. And then six months later bought the field and applied to a graduate program in Catholic theology -how crazy is that?
His love is merciless, beyond reason.
It’s curious to me how He so willingly empowers His created things. Even the inanimate ones, like the net in John 21. It should have broken, but it did not. And all the fish were good.
Awesome! Wonderful!! Thank you so much for the great commentary.
Perhaps the treasure is the Gospel or The Word of God or The Spirit of God.
The field is our heart.
When we buy the field, we take command of our heart and deny ungodliness and worldly desires and live sensibly and righteously avoiding sin. When we do so, we prepare ourselves to receive the grace of God in the washing of regeneration which is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This verse:
For those he foreknew he also predestined
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
so that he might be the firstborn
among many brothers and sisters.
And those he predestined he also called;
and those he called he also justified;
and those he justified he also glorified.
Reminds me of this verse:
Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
John Bergsma: The kingdom of God is, in one sense, “nothing but Jesus himself” is a wonderful truth but I am glad you did not import this idea into the parable of the net to say that there is both good and bad in Jesus…although we may want to affirm that there is both good and bad in Christ’s body.
Are you saying that there are people who are “saints” prior to being caught in the net that is the church? Is that not pressing the parable too hard?
Do you happen to have any reference at hand for the “reformers” you have in mind in this and last week’s post? Caspar Schwenckfeld of Ossig came to my mind as a possibility but judging by the Wikipedia entry (not necessarily a reliable source, I know), he did not seem to argue for the establishment of a pure church. Then I thought of John Nelson Darby but I found a lengthy quote from him in an old book which strongly suggests that he would not argue for establishing a pure church.
John Wyclif, in a sermon on Matthew 23 which is available online, says that “the kingdom of God” is both “Christ and his men”, but principally Christ, then, because Christ and his bride are one person, also the Church. In interpreting last week’s Gospel he makes the point that the prelates of the church were sleeping which is why weeds have grown in the church. So clearly, while he doesn’t preach the text you and I would, he is not one the “reformers” you have in mind either.
Thomas asked:
Are you saying that there are people who are “saints” prior to being caught in the net that is the church? Is that not pressing the parable too hard?
No. He made it clear he is speaking of:
These three parables are obviously speaking of the Kingdom manifested on earth as the Church, not the Kingdom consummated in the world to come.
Therefore, he is speaking of the common sainthood of all believers before they come to perfection and glorification in heaven.
Fr Gearhart and Prof Bergsma,
Do you think in the first parable that it could be told from Jesus' point of view? That is to say, the treasure in the world is the human person willing to be obedient to the Father's will (for instance, the Blessed Virgin). Then He (Jesus) goes and sells all He has (kenosis) in order to purchase the field (representing the world) all for the sake of that treasure (humanity)?
This could also be applied to the pearl parable.
Conversely, the treasure may be Christ- hidden in a human body? This could have a Eucharistic level of meaning since you cant have Christ without His body (flesh and blood). This may offer some explanation of why the field is purchased as well as the treasure hidden.
Heidi: I'm intrigued by your suggestion of different levels of meaning to the parables. It is true that the parables can be read from multiple perspectives. That is one of the advantages of such a form of teaching.
God bless,
Dr. Bergsma
Dear Thomas Renz:
I would put John Calvin in the "pure church" camp, even though he may have moderated his position over time. "Pure church" tendencies are strong in branches of Calvinism. The Puritan tradition and some forms of Dutch Reformed desired a "sifted" assembly and set high standards for membership in their congregations. There was a "pure church" cult in the vicinity of Indianapolis that I had personal contact with in the 2000's. I wouldn't describe it as Calvinist, but it did have some influences.
Certainly, Jesus set the pattern for the Body of Christ. The treasure buried in the field is, itself, the metaphor for membership in the kingdom of heaven, and the parable completes the meaning with the means of obtaining it. My question focused on the intended meaning of the means.
Of course, membership means becoming a member of the Body of Christ, and participation in the Eucharistic banquet is the key celebration and sacramental representation of that membership.
I do think the hiddenness of the treasure is another key aspect of the parable that is not well explored, or at least not generally understood. Of these two elements (the hiddenness and possession of the field), I consider the possession of the field to be the more subtle.
It seems to me that the hiddenness relates to Jesus use of parables, which, as he says, and as Isaiah said, hides the meaning for many hearers (those who hear or see without understanding). It may also relate to Jesus' efforts to manage the publicity generated by his miracles. I suspect it may also relate to the protective and preserving value of encapsulating the teaching in parables.
But Calvin had no intention of setting up a "pure church" and his interpretation of the parable of the weeds makes it perfectly clear that he believes that "bad men and hypocrites will mingle in it with those who are good and upright" right until the day of the final judgement.
(He does speak of "Anabaptists" the way you speak of "reformers" which is why I wondered about Schwenckfeld.)
http://sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc32/cc32021.htm
Calvin on the parable of the net: "the Church of God, so long as it exists in the world, is a mixture of the good with the bad, and is never free from stains and pollutions."
http://sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc32/cc32023.htm
De Maria, thank you. I had to do this slowly but I think I got it now. This is the sentence which I wasn’t sure I understood:
“Like the net thrown into the sea that catches fish of many kinds, so the Church is like a net thrown by Peter, his co-workers the Apostles, and their successors, which brings many—both saints and sinners—into God’s Kingdom.”
You reminded me that Bergsma believes that “God’s kingdom” here refers to the Kingdom manifested on earth as the Church, not the Kingdom consummated in the world to come and then underlined that “he is speaking of the common sainthood of all believers before they come to perfection and glorification in heaven,” i.e. uses the term in the sense it bears in Scripture.
This means that “kingdom of God = the Church” and “saints = believers on earth”. So I can re-phrase the original sentence:
“Like the net thrown into the sea that catches fish of many kinds, so the Church is like a net thrown by Peter, his co-workers the Apostles, and their successors, which brings many—both believers [on earth] and sinners—into the Church.”
In other words, the Church brings both those who truly belong to God and “sinners” into the Church, whereby “saints and sinners” are terms which refer to ultimate outcome rather than what these people were before caught in the net.
(Presumably they were all sinners prior to baptism, some or all of them [I am not minded to re-open this discussion] becoming saints through baptism, some of them then becoming “sinners” again of which some are lost forever but others revert to being “saints” so that at the end we have “saints” [the saved] who at one or several points in their lives were “sinners” [lost] and “sinners” [the lost] who at some point may have been “saints” [saved].)
I am pleased to have made some progress in understanding the teaching offered and pleased that it was you who helped me.
Thomas,
You're welcome.
De Maria
How can the three kingdoms referenced in the gospel be strictly the kingdom on earth when the gospel ends with a reference to the end of the age (a whole world wide cleansing of the weeds and wheat?). Christ states "So will it be at the end of the age" Aka: So will the final reference to kingdom be as at the end of the age when there is universal (inside and outside) judgement that leads to the world to come (the kingdom of heaven).
Hello Peter,
You asked:
Peter said...
How can the three kingdoms referenced in the gospel be strictly the kingdom on earth when the gospel ends with a reference to the end of the age (a whole world wide cleansing of the weeds and wheat?).
1. The three kingdoms, I'm assuming you mean the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of the son of man.
2. If so, the three are synonymous. They mean the same thing from different perspectives.
The Kingdom of God is from the perspective of the Father. He is King over all Creation. He is King over heaven and earth.
The Kingdom of heaven is from the perspective of the Spiritual Realm. The Spiritual Realm exends into the material realm. It is the spiritual component of our being that gives us life. God is King over the Spiritual Realm in heaven and on earth.
The Kingdom of the son of man is the Kingdom which Jesus Christ established upon earth, but which Kingdom already exists in heaven. Christ is King over the angels as well as King over all of us on earth.
3. You asked:
How can the three kingdoms referenced in the gospel be strictly the kingdom on earth ...
a. They are not three kingdoms, they are one.
b. The Kingdom, extends into the material world, the earth.
c. The parable is making a point from the perspective of the Kingdom on earth.
Christ states "So will it be at the end of the age" Aka: So will the final reference to kingdom be as at the end of the age when there is universal (inside and outside) judgement that leads to the world to come (the kingdom of heaven).
Yes, the angels, citizens of the Kingdom which is in heaven will be sent to earth to take out of the Kingdom on earth, those who are unrepentant sinners and cast them into the fire.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Evidently I need to clarify. In the article, it was stated that the three kingdoms from the three PARABLES are all referring to the "Kingdom manifested on earth as Church."
Going off of last weeks gospel, Jesus identifies the world as the field. Here again, in Matthew 13, we are seeing Jesus ending by speaking of the entire world. "So will it be at the end of the age" The end of the age is a universal judgement involving both those in the Church and those outside the church. This judgement, which involves both in Matthew 13:40-42, is likened directly to the three parables above it.
What this seems to indicate is that it is theologically correct to use the word kingdom more broadly than the Church here on earth (as in all of these parables Christ is referring to those on earth).
In fact the net analogy is a perfect example of this. The net is thrown into the water to collect fish of "every kind" You could argue in light of the field analogy from last weeks gospel (the field again representing the whole world), that "every kind" of fish is more than just Catholic. That the cod (Episcopalians), flounder (Jews), Perch (Baptists), and every other kind of fish is involved besides just the Salmon in this sorting. Of course to even suggest this would involve getting into a discussion on salvation outside the church. That's one of the reasons why I think many theologians identify it as only the Church. If your going to suggest it is the entire world, than you enter into the discussion of salvation outside the church.
I am willing to state that this passage alone DOES have the strength to carry the suggestion that it is strictly limited to the Church. However, when you look at it in light of last weeks gospel, with the field and the world analogy, it seems to indicate that Christ is still on the subject of the world when he addresses the end of the age instead of just the Church. If it can be shown that field is somehow limited to church specifically than I would be willing to take a closer look at limiting this just to the Church.
Hello again,
you said:
Peter said...
Evidently I need to clarify. In the article, it was stated that the three kingdoms from the three PARABLES are all referring to the "Kingdom manifested on earth as Church."
I don't see the term "three kingdoms". Are you making reference to this quote?
These three parables are obviously speaking of the Kingdom manifested on earth as the Church,...
Going off of last weeks gospel, Jesus identifies the world as the field.
Yes. But He doesn't identify the field with the Church. He identifies the children of the Kingdom with the Church. Or at least, we do, when He says:
Jesus said:
“He who sows good seed is the Son of Man,
the field is the world, the good seed the children of the kingdom.
Notice how He distinguishes between the world and the kingdom.
Here again, in Matthew 13, we are seeing Jesus ending by speaking of the entire world. "So will it be at the end of the age" The end of the age is a universal judgement involving both those in the Church and those outside the church. This judgement, which involves both in Matthew 13:40-42, is likened directly to the three parables above it.
What this seems to indicate is that it is theologically correct to use the word kingdom more broadly than the Church here on earth (as in all of these parables Christ is referring to those on earth).
In fact the net analogy is a perfect example of this. The net is thrown into the water to collect fish of "every kind" You could argue in light of the field analogy from last weeks gospel (the field again representing the whole world),....
Yes. But in the parable of the net, Jesus is not focusing on the world, but on the Church (i.e. net).
The sea represents the world. The net represents the Church. Note how the net was not cast into the sea at the end of the world. Casting the net into the sea is the same as Jesus sowing good seed in the world.
Now, the net is brought up into the Boat. Another reference to the Church. It is here, that at the end of the age, the evil will be sorted out from the good.
I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
De Maria
One kingdom, three parables. We are talking about ONE kingdom described by Christ here. Three "references" to one kingdom.
De Maria: "Yes. But He doesn't identify the field with the Church. He identifies the children of the Kingdom with the Church. Jesus said: 'He who sows good seed is the Son of Man,the field is the world, the good seed the children of the kingdom.'
True statement. The good seed in this world are the children of the kingdom. But there is nothing to limit the weeds in this passage to the children of the kingdom as well. This becomes more clear at the end of the gospel when Christ declares that at the end of the age the son of man will send his angel to gather the weeds out of where? Out of the kingdom! Indicating that the weeds too are in this kingdom that he is referencing in this passage.
That's why im saying, if Christ ends these parables with a "so too" statement, and then immediately makes reference to the weeds also being in his kingdom while at the same time making reference to the end of the age itself (a universal judgement for both those inside and outside the church), than the kingdom cannot be limited to the church.
While the church may in a particular way be his kingdom on earth where he resides, the mass and the graces within it bring down grace for the rest of the world. This entire world is his kingdom. Everyone. All the fish in the sea not just the salmon, will either be rooted from this kingdom that Christ is referencing, or remain in it..The differentiation between weeds and the children of the kingdom simply has no grounds for drawing the conclusion that he is only speaking of the Church.
Regarding the parable of the net, again, this conclusion cannot be adequately drawn if Christ is speaking of weeds being drawn out of his kingdom in direct reference to a universal judgement on all humanity at the end of the gospel.
Correction: there is nothing to limit the passage to the children of the world (in other words the weeds).
or rather...the children of the kingdom. In an more clear clarification:
"there is nothing to limit the kingdom referred to by Christ as just in referance to the children of the Church even though he mentioned children of the kingdom. The end of the chapter gives witness to this in that the weeds are in this kingdom in referance as well. The children of the world is more a referance wheat vs weeds than a distinction between the church as kingdom vs the world as not kingdom. From the previous weeks gospel it seems almost certain that the world is a kingdom that belongs to christ through his passion death and ressurrection. Christ is king of this world. Where there is a king, there too is a kingdom.
Hi Peter, you said:
Peter said...
One kingdom, three parables. We are talking about ONE kingdom described by Christ here. Three "references" to one kingdom.
I agree.
True statement. The good seed in this world are the children of the kingdom. But there is nothing to limit the weeds in this passage to the children of the kingdom as well. This becomes more clear at the end of the gospel when Christ declares that at the end of the age the son of man will send his angel to gather the weeds out of where? Out of the kingdom! Indicating that the weeds too are in this kingdom that he is referencing in this passage.
Agreed. Yes. Jesus has narrowed the focus, in a very subtle way, from the world at large to the Kingdom. Just the same way that He narrowed the focus from that which is in the sea to that which is in the net on the boat.
You mentioned "No Salvation Outside the Church" before. That is precisely what this is saying. Outside the Church, outside the Kingdom in the world, outside the net and the boat in the sea, there is no hope of salvation.
That's why im saying, if Christ ends these parables with a "so too" statement, and then immediately makes reference to the weeds also being in his kingdom while at the same time making reference to the end of the age itself (a universal judgement for both those inside and outside the church), than the kingdom cannot be limited to the church.
For the reasons I've provided, I believe it is precisely so. Jesus Christ has focused upon the Church.
While the church may in a particular way be his kingdom on earth where he resides, the mass and the graces within it bring down grace for the rest of the world. This entire world is his kingdom. Everyone.
Agreed. But that is not the subject of this parable.
All the fish in the sea not just the salmon, will either be rooted from this kingdom that Christ is referencing, or remain in it..The differentiation between weeds and the children of the kingdom simply has no grounds for drawing the conclusion that he is only speaking of the Church.
I disagree for the reasons already mentioned.
Regarding the parable of the net, again, this conclusion cannot be adequately drawn if Christ is speaking of weeds being drawn out of his kingdom in direct reference to a universal judgement on all humanity at the end of the gospel.
Again, see my explanation above.
I hope that helps,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Peter, you said:
5:40 PM
Peter said...
Correction: there is nothing to limit the passage to the children of the world (in other words the weeds).
5:42 PM
Peter said...
or rather...the children of the kingdom. In an more clear clarification:
"there is nothing to limit the kingdom referred to by Christ as just in referance to the children of the Church even though he mentioned children of the kingdom. The end of the chapter gives witness to this in that the weeds are in this kingdom in referance as well. The children of the world is more a referance wheat vs weeds than a distinction between the church as kingdom vs the world as not kingdom. From the previous weeks gospel it seems almost certain that the world is a kingdom that belongs to christ through his passion death and ressurrection. Christ is king of this world. Where there is a king, there too is a kingdom.
The way I see it is this way:
In both parables, Jesus has narrowed the focus, in a very subtle way, from the world at large to the Kingdom. In the parable of the weeds and wheat, he spoke of the world, then focused on the kingdom. In the parable of the net, he spoke of the sea, then narrowed the focus to that which was found in the net and in the boat.
You mentioned "No Salvation Outside the Church" before. That is precisely what this is saying. Outside the Church, outside the Kingdom in the world, outside the net and the boat in the sea, there is no hope of salvation.
Sincerely,
De Maria
"Jesus has narrowed the focus, in a very subtle way"
There is no narrowing. If your still arguing for one kingdom, than your contradicting your own statement. If the sea was the world, than the fish on that boat that are being sorted are ALL the fish collected from the world. It doesnt mean they are all choosing to be Catholic coming onto that boat (only the salmon).
Who collects them? Their maker. The Lord himself is the net. He is making a point to the people: You all live in the world. Your all different. None of you will escape my net. If your spiritually healthy ill keep you. If your spiritually dead or ill, you're in this kingdom no more.
But again there really is the reality in this weeks gospel (like last weeks with the field as the world), that the three parables of the kingdom are likened to the end of the age..At which time there will be a separation of the weeds from the wheat in his kingdom on a universal level.....If he was meaning to limit it to only the Church then he should not have used the phrase "So will it be at" before transitioning from these parables to the end of the age.
I guess were back to the same spot I was at before: If it can be shown why even with the "So will it be at" statement the three parables better represent the Church alone vs the whole world, I am willing to hear it out. I am not in complete opposition to the notion that its to church as well. I am just in disagreement that it is only in referance to church. The narrowing does make sense, but even with the narrowing your going from whole world not to the word kingdom, but to Christ Himself. The net is more closely related to personhood of who is doing the catching...Unless of course you were to interpret the net as the Church pulling out of the world the fish. The church does have authority (whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven). But then this is unlikely for it is also in Matthews gospel that Christ states that he will make his disciples fishers of men. The net is most likely in this weeks gospel referring to christ himself.
Hello Peter,
Peter said...
"Jesus has narrowed the focus, in a very subtle way"
There is no narrowing.
Yes, there is.
If your still arguing for one kingdom, than your contradicting your own statement. If the sea was the world, than the fish on that boat that are being sorted are ALL the fish collected from the world. It doesnt mean they are all choosing to be Catholic coming onto that boat (only the salmon).
The allegory of the net is clear. Have you not read when the Lord said to the Apostles:
Matthew 4:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
And again when Jesus said to the Apostles:
John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
And did you not also read when Jesus was planting seeds, planting His Word in the souls of the listeners, sitting upon Peter's boat?
Luke 5:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.
And have you not heard of the Catholic Church referred to as "Barque (i.e. Boat) of Peter? Or as Peter's net?
The symbolism is plain.
Who collects them? Their maker. The Lord himself is the net. He is making a point to the people: You all live in the world. Your all different. None of you will escape my net. If your spiritually healthy ill keep you. If your spiritually dead or ill, you're in this kingdom no more.
That is your interpretation. I don't see anything which contradicts Catholic Teaching in that one. But I prefer the image of the Church.
But again there really is the reality in this weeks gospel (like last weeks with the field as the world), that the three parables of the kingdom are likened to the end of the age..At which time there will be a separation of the weeds from the wheat in his kingdom on a universal level.....If he was meaning to limit it to only the Church then he should not have used the phrase "So will it be at" before transitioning from these parables to the end of the age.
Jesus said:
The Son of Man will send his angels,
and they will collect out of his kingdom
all who cause others to sin and all evildoers.
It is logical that He focuses on the Church because the others have already condemned themselves, so to speak, by rejecting the Church and the Teaching of Jesus Christ which the Church hands down.
I guess were back to the same spot I was at before: If it can be shown why even with the "So will it be at" statement the three parables better represent the Church alone vs the whole world, I am willing to hear it out. I am not in complete opposition to the notion that its to church as well. I am just in disagreement that it is only in referance to church. The narrowing does make sense, but even with the narrowing your going from whole world not to the word kingdom, but to Christ Himself. The net is more closely related to personhood of who is doing the catching...Unless of course you were to interpret the net as the Church pulling out of the world the fish. The church does have authority (whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven). But then this is unlikely for it is also in Matthews gospel that Christ states that he will make his disciples fishers of men. The net is most likely in this weeks gospel referring to christ himself.
And the Word of God says that the Church is the Body of Christ.
To clarify: There is no narrowing in the sense of going from one kingdom to another. You are now at the world kingdom, now you are at christs kingdom etc. There is a narrowing in the sense of it becomes more clear in the passage that you go from the world to the reality that where Christ is king, there is kingdom. That Christ is the cause of kingdom in the first place......Where there is a king, there is a kingdom.
You stated: "It is logical that He focuses on the Church because the others have already condemned themselves, so to speak, by rejecting the Church and the Teaching of Jesus Christ which the Church hands down."
This is one of the principle arguments for the world. Now like I said before, we are crossing over to the discussion of salvation outside the Catholic Church. Your suggesting that it is only Catholics who are saved. I'm arguing that the God we serve is more merciful in extending salvation than that: That while the chance for salvation greatly increases in the Church because of the sacraments that we have at avail to us, that the passion opened up the door to salvation for the entire world. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of this: Salvation through baptism by desire....That had a soul known of the truth of Christ and his gospel and not just known in the head, but in the heart, they have the same chance for salvation as those in the Church do. I think there are a lot of people who if they truly knew of the gospel with their heart, and not their head alone, they would accept the Catholic faith, so I don't really think its a matter of a "hands down" issue like you are stating. If salvation is open to the world outside the Church than I think the Son of Man is speaking of the whole world. If it can be proved that salvation is limited to only the Church than I think your point is perfectly acceptable. But to prove that with the number of even evangelical protestants who have had the Holy Spirit move in their own life profoundly would be difficult.
Peter said...
To clarify: There is no narrowing in the sense of going from one kingdom to another.
There is a narrowing of going from the sea/world to the net/kingdom.
You are now at the world kingdom, now you are at christs kingdom etc. There is a narrowing in the sense of it becomes more clear in the passage that you go from the world to the reality that where Christ is king, there is kingdom. That Christ is the cause of kingdom in the first place......Where there is a king, there is a kingdom.
Agreed. But the king of the world is Satan as is made clear in the previous parable of the weeds and wheat.
You stated: "It is logical that He focuses on the Church because the others have already condemned themselves, so to speak, by rejecting the Church and the Teaching of Jesus Christ which the Church hands down."
This is one of the principle arguments for the world.
Not the way I see it. It is clear that those in the sea/world remain outside the net/kingdom.
Now like I said before, we are crossing over to the discussion of salvation outside the Catholic Church. Your suggesting that it is only Catholics who are saved.
In accordance with the Teaching of the Catholic Church.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:....
I'm arguing that the God we serve is more merciful in extending salvation than that:
That is Catholic Teaching.
That while the chance for salvation greatly increases in the Church because of the sacraments that we have at avail to us, that the passion opened up the door to salvation for the entire world.
Its the other way around.
From the very beginning of the world, the whole world is under the natural law, the law written in our hearts. If they who are in the world, keep the Commandments, they can be saved, on the last day, in the Judgment.
Catholics are under the law of grace with is administered through the Sacraments. Those of us who submit to the Sacraments receive a foretaste of eternal life when the Holy Spirit pours Sanctifying grace into our souls. If we receive this grace with the proper dispositions.
cont'd
cont'd
Peter also said:
Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of this: Salvation through baptism by desire....That had a soul known of the truth of Christ and his gospel and not just known in the head, but in the heart, they have the same chance for salvation as those in the Church do.
Agreed.
I think there are a lot of people who if they truly knew of the gospel with their heart, and not their head alone, they would accept the Catholic faith, so I don't really think its a matter of a "hands down" issue like you are stating.
I don't remember using the words, hands down. I said those who had rejected the Church. And that is the Catholic Teaching.
If salvation is open to the world outside the Church than I think the Son of Man is speaking of the whole world.
The whole world will be judged. But this parable is not about that. It is clear in Rev 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
These are they which are in the net. Not all in the Church are in the book of life. But some are cast out into the sea.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
After the Church is judged, then the world will be judged.
That is what the Parable is about, in a nutshell.
And here is further confirmation:
1 Peter 4:17King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
If it can be proved that salvation is limited to only the Church than I think your point is perfectly acceptable. But to prove that with the number of even evangelical protestants who have had the Holy Spirit move in their own life profoundly would be difficult.
Nor did I make any such argument. I don't judge anyone. God is their Judge.
We are discussing the Parable of the net cast into the sea. And in that parable, the net is clearly, the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
PRAYING GOD'S WRITTEN WORD
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"But the king of the world is Satan as is made clear in the previous parable of the weeds and wheat."
Satan is not known as the king of this world, but the prince of it. Christ is king of this world wheather the world accepts him or rejects him as such. By his passion, death and ressurrection he has redeemed the world.
"CCC quote: Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336"
The key word is knowing. Do you know how many people out there do not know? This same book also speaks of Baptism by desire.
"
From the very beginning of the world, the whole world is under the natural law, the law written in our hearts. If they who are in the world, keep the Commandments, they can be saved, on the last day, in the Judgment."
My point exactly. They too will be subject to the judgement. Thus when Christ speaks of gathering out weeds, he is referring to them just as he is referring to weeds in the Church.
Listen, its okay to have a theological discussion and disagree. I do respect where you are coming from even if you disagree. Sometimes I have been wrong in my own theology. I want to listen and engage but feel shut down like there is an agressive defensiveness here. A wholesome discussion has some give and take to it. I do see some of your points, and there is more to discuss here. However I don't feel with you I will be able to discuss them. It will turn into more of an Im right, your wrong dual.If Christ had carried his defensive responses like yours with the Jews, people would have left the sermon mount and ran their camels like horses right out of Sa maria.
Hello Peter,
You said:
….Listen, its okay to have a theological discussion and disagree. I do respect where you are coming from even if you disagree. Sometimes I have been wrong in my own theology. I want to listen and engage but feel shut down like there is an agressive defensiveness here.
Is that coming from me? Or you?
You asked a question.
I responded.
You said I was wrong.
I defended my position,
You said I was wrong again.
I defended my position.
etc. etc.
Now, you seem upset.
Why, do you think you're the only one who's opinion is worthwhile? Do you think you are infallible? Do you think you have the right to the last word? Scripture says:
Proverbs 18:17New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
17 Those who plead the case first seem to be in the right;
then the opponent comes and cross-examines them.
If you don't want to be cross examined or contradicted, you probably shouldn't be posting your comments on a public forum.
A wholesome discussion has some give and take to it.
Agreed.
I do see some of your points,
And I see some of yours.
and there is more to discuss here.
That's totally up to you. But if you have some sort of ground rule that says that you reserve the right to say that I'm wrong but I don't have the right to say that you are wrong, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.
However I don't feel with you I will be able to discuss them. It will turn into more of an Im right, your wrong dual.
It is you who first contradicted me. Here's the exchange, and I quote:
You said:
True statement. The good seed in this world are the children of the kingdom. But there is nothing to limit the weeds in this passage to the children of the kingdom as well. This becomes more clear at the end of the gospel when Christ declares that at the end of the age the son of man will send his angel to gather the weeds out of where? Out of the kingdom! Indicating that the weeds too are in this kingdom that he is referencing in this passage.
My response:
Agreed. Yes. Jesus has narrowed the focus, in a very subtle way,….
Your blatant contradiction:
To clarify: There is no narrowing in the sense of going from one kingdom to another. You are now at the world kingdom, now you are at christs kingdom etc. There is a narrowing in the sense of it becomes more clear in the passage that you go from the world to the reality that where Christ is king, there is kingdom. That Christ is the cause of kingdom in the first place......Where there is a king, there is a kingdom.
So, apparently, you feel you have the right to say that you are right and I am wrong. But you deny me that right, is that it?
If Christ had carried his defensive responses like yours with the Jews, people would have left the sermon mount and ran their camels like horses right out of Sa maria.
On the contrary, Jesus preached to the multitudes and they did not contradict His word. But if they did, this is what they got:
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
I came nowhere near saying anything like that to you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
As the Spirit has shown...
If one feels discomfort from Spiritual milk, prayerful patience and a gentle pat on the back.
If one chokes on solid Food, don't hit harder; advise them chew with more care.
The LORD, after all, feeds us in proportion to predisposition. Digest in prayer, mindful of each precious morsel.
God bless!
“In a mysterious way, a way known only to God, those who freely “choose God” actually find that, all along, they were chosen by him.” Yes there is no doubt that at point or another one has to choose God and His ways as revealed in Christ Jesus. Thus, this choice as to be conformed to God’s choice. In deed the author says our choice conforms to the choice which was made for us by God even before we were born and/or know it. So the question, the big question, is that if God chose the path already—which, in no way, I am implicating any complaining what so ever, on the contrary I am glad to be found in Jesus who chose a life for me before the foundation of the world—then how can the already determined path reconciled with the free choice?
Elijah,
The way I've heard that explained elsewhere, is that God knows which choice we will make, but we don't. Therefore, we are still free to choose.
@ Fr. Larry Gearhart...I didn't read all the comments prior to this, so don't know if someone already said this, but here goes. I was reminded during today's Gospel reading of this: Isn't it true that to take the treasure from a field that doesn't belong to you would be stealing? I always figured the fellow bought the field so it would be HIS treasure - the price of the field is, in effect, his price for the treasure.
"Is that coming from me? Or you?
You asked a question.
I responded.
You said I was wrong.
I defended my position,
You said I was wrong again.
I defended my position.
etc. etc.
Now, you seem upset."
The only thing I am upset about is the fact that you like to see others brood. At this point in the conversation the people are no loner on their camels in this flight from SA Maria to Judea...You have followed the people screaming I am right read my bible and the camels are now throwing off their cargo and running into the ocean. I would estimate thus far, over 100 camels will need to be purchased at Jerusalems market because of you are quoting the King James Bible to the people and want the people to argue with you.
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